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maga base again. how will voters react to his reversal on reproductive rights? i'll ask congresswoman shontel brown. then, on the defensive. trump tries again to dismiss the controversy over his visit to arlington national cemetery as vice president harris now weighs in, accusing him of disrespecting sacred ground. and legal drama. trump and special counsel jack smith fight it out over what's next in the federal election interference case. why the former president is trying to delay proceedings until next year. i'm charles coleman jr. in for jonathan capehart, and we've got a lot to talk about. this is "the saturday show." this weekend marks our celebration of labor day and the unofficial end to what has been a historic and sometimes

unbelievable summer. and now comes the race to november, with both kamala harris and donald trump each making their sprint toward election day. with 66 days to go vice president harris looks to capitalize on a successful week including her bus tour through south georgia. on thursday around 7,500 supporters packed an arena in savanna to hear vice president kamala harris speak. it was the maximum capacity of the venue according to her campaign. and that on the road momentum seems to be translating to the polls. a new fox news poll shows that harris has put four sunbelt states back in play since she entered the race. now she narrowly leads trum within the margin of error in georgia, arizona and nevada while trump is barely clinging to a one-point lead in north carolina. the poll also shows that the vice president has improved on president biden's 2020 and 24

poll numbers in those same states. but here's the thing we have to keep in mind. polls are not predictive. they just represent a snapshot in time. and they've been wrong before. i'm old enough to remember that in this exact month in 2016 fox news had hillary clinton crushing donald trump in the race by ten points. so while polls are useful, take into account that they don't always indicate what voters will ultimately decide in november. nevertheless, the vice president is using the momentum to her advantage, even doing the one thing her critics accused her of dodging. a sit-down interview. on thursday in a conversation with cnn's dana bash she and governor tim walz discussed a wide range of topics. but there was one thing that the vice president refused to entertain. and that was trump's attacks on her identity and race. >> he suggested that you happened to turn black recently

for political purposes. questioning a core part of your identity. >> yeah. >> any -- >> same old tired playbook. next question, please. >> that's it? >> that's it. >> that's it. as you can see, harris has not taken the bait on any of trump's attacks. and he seems to be rattled by how unbothered she appears. listen, schoolyard bullying, race baiting and name calling are his usual go-to moves. but as he becomes more flustered by not being able to find solid footing, he's struggling to put out a consistent message on policy. case in point, on thursday trump initially told nbc that he thought florida's six-week abortion ban was too short and he indicated he would vote for a proposed amendment that would expand abortion access in the state. but just a day later after some pressure from conservative activists he reversed course and came out against the measure. >> so i think six weeks you need

more time than six weeks. i've disagreed with that right from the early primaries when i heard about it. i disagreed with it. at the same time the democrats are radical because the nine months is just a ridiculous situation. so i'll be voting no for that reason. >> now, besides trump's flip-flopping on the this issue it's very important that we debunk his lie right here. democrats are not and have not pushed for abortions at nine months. in fact, according to federal and state data abortions past the point of viability are extremely rare. joining me now to get us started and unpack all of this is congresswoman shontel brown of ohio, a national advisory board member of the harris walz campaign. congresswoman, thank you so much for being here. i want to start with the vice president's response on twitter regarding trump and his comments to fox where she said first he got roe overturned then he got abortion banned in 20 states,

now he's voting for an abortion ban in the state where he lives. if elected he'll sign a nationwide abortion ban if it crosses his desk. what do you make, congresswoman, of donald trump's back and forth flip-flopping on this issue, and how do you think if at all voters will be able to reconcile his different positions? >> well, charles, first and foremost, thank you for having me. i have to wish one of my very dearest friends a happy 50th birthday to lisa. now, on to the real business. trump flip-flops more than my favorite sandals. you cannot trust a word that this man says. he has gone back and forth on this position. and the reason we're even in this situation is we must harken back to what you talked about at the top of the program, and that's 2016. now, we're going to go on what antoine c. wright refers to as a poller coaster from now until election day. they're going to go up and down. right? hillary clinton was defeating donald trump according to the

polls. so some people stayed home. some people decided they were going to vote third party in protest because of her e-mails. and what we ended up with was donald trump in the white house and the ability to appoint not one, not two, but three supreme court justices who have overturned decades of precedent as it relates to women being able to make their own health care decisions. so i want people to be reminded of that and to understand that the stakes are equally high in this election. despite the energy, despite the enthusiasm, we have to harness all of this and show up in the polls. that is the only way to stop donald trump, j.d. vance, and their extreme project 2025 plans including a national abortion ban that has no exceptions for rape or incest. and remember, ohio is the state where we had the 10-year-old rape victim who had to flee our state to get the health care that she needed because abortion is health care. >> now, shontel, both donald trump and vice president harris

are in a very tightly contested and hotly contested race. they both need to get as many voters as they can who are persuadable to turn out. from either side is there a world that exists that allows them to stretch and reach voters who are not a part of their base without losing the critical portions of their base that they actually need to turn out? >> i absolutely believe that wholeheartedly. as we have seen with the organic organization of support for the kamala harris-tim walz ticket, i mean, we had over 70,000 republicans for kamala harris on a zoom call. so i think that is demonstrative of her ability to talk to people beyond party affiliation. during her interview she spoke about her willingness to put someone in her cabinet that was from the republican party. so this is a woman who is truly for the people. she is about taking care of the people. where you have a strong stark contrast, where we have the

senator from my state, who really only needed one qualification to replace mike pence, who his -- who donald trump attempted to have assassinated during the january 6th insurrection, which is why we have j.d. vance on the ticket in the first place. he met the one qualification, and that was to be the yes man to donald trump, whose only desire is to stay out of jail. so when you look at these two candidates, two tickets, the republicans vs. the democrats, you've got democrats who are really fighting for the people, putting forth initiatives that are going to put money back into people's pockets. we have a lot more work to do, and we're clear about that. but on the other side you have people who are just disrespectful to everyone. i mean, from veterans to immigrants to people who have disabilities. this is just not the type of people that you want in control of power of the white house or any organization, for that

matter. >> congresswoman, you mentioned it and i want to sort of stay there for a moment. let's talk about the cnn interview that the vice president did. in it she was asked about donald trump's repeated attacks regarding her race and ethnicity and claims that she in fact is not black. at this point she neglected, or opted rather to address it. she really didn't respond at all. dana bash didn't really push back on it. is this a winning strategy for the vice president, to not even engage around that question? >> it's working. listen, the fact of the matter is the president -- the vice president, kamala harris, has been black her whole life. i don't think that she has denied that. when you look at her history, the fact that she's pledged aka, the fact she went to an hbcu, that speaks for itself. so i applaud her not entertaining the foolishness that comes out of donald trump's mouth as it relates to her heritage and her race. this is, as she quoted, a tired

old playbook that she continues to -- that he continues to use to try to attack people that he's clearly intimidated by. i think first lady obama also touched on it. it's hard for him to handle people who are intelligent, highly educated and hard-working that happen to be black. it was understood, needs not be explained. it's evident that she's black. she's always been black. and she's not -- she's not flip-flopping on that. >> congresswoman brown, really quickly before we go, one of the things that did not get discussed during that interview was the vice president's position or policy around criminal justice and civil rights. when can we expect her to talk about that given her past as a former prosecutor? >> i think as she continues to criss-cross the country and connect with the voters you'll hear more from the vice president on the great work that she did. i think that there are a lot of misinformation floating around. as a prosecutor, you're an attorney, so i won't pretend to do any lawyering here.

but as prosecutors sometimes they get a bad rap but they're really the people who are protecting and fighting for victims. and that is a big part of her career. she has won billions of dollars for people who were being taken advantage of by big banks in california. so i'm excited to hear her talk about how she put forth programs to reduce recidivism and things that really are beneficial again to the people. i expect more of that. and i think that when people get an opportunity to hear how she has served the public rather than donald trump, who only has an interest in serving himself, her numbers will continue to grow. >> what's understood does not have to be explained. that was ohio congresswoman shontel brown. thank you for getting us started. and shout out and special happy birthday to your girl lisa on "the saturday show." >> thank you. >> we now turn to breaking news out of the middle east. the idf says it has found a number of bodies during combat in the gaza strip. troops are still operating in the area and are carrying out

the process of extricating and identifying the bodies. the idf says that this could take several hours. we will bring you more as details emerge. also coming up, donald trump tries to again defend his controversial visit to arlington national cemetery. but vice president harris is accusing him of pulling a political stunt on sacred ground. plus, blocking the vote. the fight brewing over republican control of the election board in georgia and the new rules that could cause chaos in the battleground state this november. you're watching "the saturday show" on msnbc. bc and more practical? be able to perform here. and here. make a statement while barely making a sound. and command the road, as well as what lies ahead.

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the political fallout over donald trump's controversial visit to arlington national cemetery is growing. according to the army on monday, a member of trump's campaign staff abruptly pushed aside a staff member at the cemetery so that trump and his campaign could take photos with families of service members who died during the u.s. military's withdrawal from afghanistan in 2021. the incident happened in an area where photos are usually prohibited. now, trump says the family asked for the pictures and at an event last night he lashed out at the criticism he is receiving. >> they said trump -- president trump spent time at arlington national cemetery taking pictures and things. it's just so disgusting. and i'll tell you, if you

haven't noticed, i get a lot of publicity. i don't need that publicity. i get a lot. i get too much. i'd like to have half the publicity. i want to hire a pr person to get me half the publicity. >> in case you're wondering, hiring a pr person to get less publicity is generally not how hiring a pr person works but that's another conversation. vice president harris hit back against trump's antics this afternoon tweeting, "let me be clear. the former president disrespected sacred ground, all for the sake of a political stunt." joining me now is rena shah, former senior gop congressional adviser and a member of republicans for harris. erin haines, editor at large for the nineteenth. and christina greer, associate professor of political science at fordham university and author

of the book "black ethnics: race and immigration and the pursuit of the american dream." this is an all-star panel. so glad to have my favorites here. rena, i'm going to start with you, less than three hours after vice president harris tweeted her criticism of trump j.d. vance was on the air waves. he tweeted saying "why don't you get off social media and go launch an investigation into their unnecessary deaths?" what do you make of this sort of back and forth between j.d. vance and the vice president? >> putting my political strategist hat on i would have advised that. i think it's fine for him to bring it up because that's what they wanted to do. they wanted to have a moment at arlington national cemetery where they could stick it in the biden administration to say you failed in afghanistan and americans haven't forgotten. well, look, i of course mourn the loss of our fellow service -- excuse me, fellow americans who served proudly and bravely and lost their lives in that withdrawal. and it wasn't a great withdrawal. it was pretty disastrous. but we've moved so far away from

that, charles, and they are not able to land any punches. that's what really sticks to me in particular. sticks out to me. that j.d. vance in all these weeks, in all his fighting back at harris, there's nothing that has stuck. so he continues to go out there and try anything but this is not the issue they want to be talking about right now. they want to be talking about bidenomics and every day that they're forced to address one of their errors on the trail, talk about reproductive care access, abortion, is a day that they miss a chance to say we will give you a better, more thriving economy. and frankly, they also haven't told us how they'd do that either. so it's all really kind of confusing right now. we're going to continue to see j.d. vance do this mibsed bag strategy. that's for sure. >> erin, picking up exactly where rinna left off, this idea that we are not seeing as much substantive engagement about policy from either side, what does that do to the electorate and which candidate does that

hurt the most? i mean, you're talking about a political stunt at arlington national cemetery. not that that should be dismissed from the perspective of honoring our fallen service members. but when you're thinking of the policies either of these candidates want to enact moving forward the electorate is not getting a clear picture of that from either side. about what type of back and forth, this back and forth, who does that hurt more, biden or harris? i'm sorry, trump or harris? >> this incident is really just reminding people of who former president trump was when he was in office even as you have vice president harris attempting to introduce herself really for the first time to a lot of the american people who may not have known what she was doing as vice president. so that was exactly what, to rina's point, former president trump was trying to do. he was trying to seize on this issue and tie her to what he sees as a failed strategy in afghanistan with president biden.

but trump also has this record as it relates to his support or lack thereof for the military, which is what the harris campaign is pointing out in response to his remarks, right? we have i candidate whose strategy of distraction is working against him because this strategy is distracting voters from the issue he was trying to draw attention to. and i can make one other point it's also important to note the other dynamic that is happening here and that is that harris really is reclaiming freedom and patriotism for the democratic party in this moment. that was something we saw at the democratic national convention in chicago. it's something we continue to see her doing on the campaign trail. in that arena people were chanting "usa," there were flags all over the place so, no doubt former president trump was seeing this and trying to figure out how to counter what she's doing. >> christina, you're our political scientist on this panel. so i want to broaden this a little bit. in the last block i had an opportunity to ask congresswoman shontel brown when we might hear from the harris campaign around policy related to civil rights and criminal justice reform.

given kamala harris's history as a former prosecutor, how important do you think it's going to be to voters who are still undecided in evaluating her campaign particularly given the level of misinformation and mixed information that exists about her as a former prosecutor? >> i think that's the key. kamala harris is trying to combat a lot of misinformation and disinformation that's been out there since she was a senator. her time as a district attorney and her time as attorney general in the state of california is one of those things where there are lots of people who have parroted rumors and misinformation but they have no citations for it. so as she starts with her origin story in many ways we saw that at the dnc, you know, kamala harris for the people, she's going to have to weave a very interesting tale, which is on the one hand doing her job, the district attorney and attorney general, they are prosecutors. they represent the federal government. and they are to uphold the law in all facets.

and sometimes people who are african americans get swept up in that net. on the other hand, there are a lot of -- because i think race and gender, the intersection of both, there are a lot of stories about her that are quite honestly not true. so she and also her surrogates have to make sure they combat this misinformation and disinformation. and the people who have been parroting it in certain journalists as well have to be clear and honest about the fact they have not represented her background as accurately as they could have and should have and we can't fall into the trap of just because donald trump says it and says it a lot that all of a sudden it's, a, fact or, b, worth repeating and asking kamala harris about. so that's where we are moving forward. on the one hand, she's reintroducing herself to many people. on the other hand, she's introducing herself for the first time to some people. so some of these policies she will say biden and i did them, and other policies it's going to be a fresh new day and she's forging a new path as the nominee for the democratic

party. >> it will be interesting to see which of those policies she advances on her own and which of those policies she attributes to her tenure with joe biden as the vice president. rina, you're our strategist here from the gop no less. i want to give you -- i want to ask you to put your strategy hat on. you watched the interview thursday. you see donald trump has really struggled to try and land anything substantive on the vice president with respect to her candidacy. if you're advising the trump campaign, one thing that you take away from that interview that you think could potentially be turned into a positive for donald trump's campaign in terms of trying to respond to kamala harris. >> well, look, the interview didn't hurt her or help her. and i think it was intended to be that way. i thought it was not a slam dunk, but i was very satisfied from a political professional standpoint as to how it was conducted for her and essentially from cnn as well. you know, look, in general what

people are going to claim is it was a scripted interview. no. it was a sit-down interview for the first time in which she was able to not only hammer home the points she wanted by repeating them but to essentially just be there for the first time and hold steady. again, that was the point. now, from there how could trump take this as a win, and i think that's what he's working with tulsi gabbard on, is how he can really stick it to her in the debate and how he could do that -- look, i don't want to be helpful to him. i've been trying to defeat trumpism for eight years here. but she didn't speak in specifics this past week. so she's going to have to drill down in every single place. even on fracking. she didn't say why she evolved. she just said i've evolved, i've changed. right? so she again is going to have to drill down, get a little bit more detailed, give us more. and she has some time to do that. again, she could do it on the debate stage. but she's also going to have to divorce herself of bidenomics because that's the one place in which they want to get her and i think he can be successful if he goes into the data points and

really details her there. but i also don't trust that he can do that. >> and i think given what we've seen although thus far, i think many of us are wondering if he can actually make that happen in terms of attacking the policy or combating the notion of bidenomics. but it remains to be seen. rina shah, errin haines and christina greer, thank you so much for joining me on "the saturday show." up next, why democrats are suing georgia's election board. i've got a fantastic panel to discuss that with, including a state senator who filed an ethics complaint against some of the members of that very board. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back after a short break. ter a short break. when enjoying life's special moments are you left guessing which foods are right for you? with the freestyle libre 3 system you'll know your glucose and where it's headed no fingersticks needed. freestyle libre 3 manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. so you can focus on those special moments. covered by medicare for more people managing diabetes with insulin.

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officials an illegally wide berth to hunt for election irregularities of any kind, potentially slowing the certification process. viewers may remember the 2020 election when then president trump made that infamous phone call to georgia's top election official, republican brad raffensperger, urging him to find the votes he needed to win the state. now, that call is at the heart of an ongoing criminal case that's being led of course by fulton county d.a. fani willis that alleges that trump attempted to overturn the results of the 2020 election in georgia, in particular by pressuring election officials. joining me now to discuss this is greg bluestein, political reporter for the "atlanta journal-constitution," msnbc political contributor and author of "flipped: how georgia turned purple and broke the monopoly of republican power." as well as democratic georgia state senator nabila islam parks. thank you both for being here.

greg, can you just explain for all of us these new election rules? exactly how do they work and what is the big issue around them in terms of why they're controversial? >> first the big issue around them is number one, it's so close to the election. and so even republicans, even brad raffensperger, who oversees the elections process in georgia, is saying that these are 11th-hour changes proposed by unelected bureaucrats. it's a five-member election board which has yenly been held in check by a more moderate more mainstream bloc of voters. well, the swing vote on that five-member board recently resigned, letting a maga republican sort of take his place. and that's what's happened here. there's new processes being proposed. there's indefinite, undefined ability to scrutinize election results that has no definition. so the worry is that local elections -- and there's 159 local election boards in georgia because there's 159 counties. the worry is even if one of

these counties holds up and refuses to certify the election results in november that could throw the results to a undefined system, to the courts, to unchartered territory in georgia. >> speaking of this uncharted territory, senator, you filed an ethics complaint against the board. what do you see as the potential impact these new rules could have on the election and why is it that voters should be concerned? >> well, voters should be concerned because now we have a state elections board that isn't concerned with fair elections. they're trying to rig the elections in the favor of their preferred candidate, which in this instance is donald trump. so we have these maga election boards that are passing these election rules, illegal election rules to allow county election officials to obstruct the certification process. and that is essentially obstructing our voices at the

ballot. which could cause massive delays during election day. and we need to make sure that this does not happen, which is why i filed my ethics complaint and i'm still waiting to hear back from the governor as to what his next move is. but we need to immediately have a hearing to remove these election board members. >> greg, what we know about donald trump and georgia governor brian kemp is that there hasn't always been a warm and fuzzy relationship between the two. in fact, donald trump has been particularly critical of the governor in georgia. and now that this is a part of the conversation it feels like governor kemp finds himself kind of sort of between a rock and a hard place in terms of party loyalty, in terms of trying to not necessarily upend georgia state politics at the expense of the leader of the republican party but at the same time having to deal with someone

who's been blazingly critical of him. what type of disarray does donald trump sitting at the head of the gop create not only in georgia but also in other down-ballot races throughout the country? >> yeah, their relationship is like this epic saga that's so well known to folks like senator parkes and me because we've been watching and f. and covering it for years. donald trump helped brian kemp get elected in 2018. then in 2020 he blamed kemp for his defeat in georgia for not doing enough to overturn his -- joe biden's election victory in a state that democrats had lost in every -- in every presidential election for nearly three decades. and up until now it seemed like they had this uneasy truce, that they had kind of found a way to go along and get along with each other. then in early april out of nowhere donald trump bruises, berates, barrages brian kemp in a way that not only took folks in georgia by surprise but also

took even trump's advisers by surprise. looks like they've reached a tentative truce again. and you're right, brian kemp, you know, to him this is a one-sided choice. he hasn't talked with donald trump since 2020. but he also doesn't want to pick a fight with him because brian kemp also has political aspirations in the future. he might run for president in 2028 himself. he might run for u.s. senate in 2026. he can't be seen as a traitor to the party. >> certainly like ray charles we will all have georgia on our mind. thank you both, greg bluestein and georgia state senator nabilah islam parkes. and still to come, donald trump and prosecutors are at odds over the timeline of his election interference case. what this all could mean ahead of november. stay with us. you're watching "the saturday show" on msnbc. ow" on msnbc

welcome back. there's a new tug of war between donald trump and special counsel jack smith. the latest back and forth is about the former president's federal election interference

case and whether it's covered by this year's immunity ruling from the supreme court. late last night a team of trump lawyers proposed a schedule that would delay a court fight over the issue until after the election and a potential trial until after inauguration day. jack smith's team wants the court to begin considering arguments on immunity immediately. earlier this week smith filed a reversed -- i'm sorry, revised indictment in the federal election interference case, removing elements from the original indictment that could possibly violate the supreme court decision. the scotus decision granted broad immunity. joining me now joyce vance, former u.s. attorney in alabama, msnbc legal analyst, super lawyer and co-host of the "sisters in law" podcast. i get to take off my glasses and talk to a lawyer. joyce, so good to have you. i read your piece around the superseding indictment that you wrote for substack.

very impressive. very clear. you said in there this should be taken as a sign jack smith is just getting started. what do you mean by that and what do you think we should expect going forward following this immunity decision? >> right. so it's clear from the superseding indictment that smith understands what the assignment is here and that's to hone the indictment down so that it complies with the supreme court's directive that he can only charge donald trump with non-official conduct or perhaps with official conduct if he can overcome the presumption that charging official conduct would be damaging to the office of the presidency. that means there are a lot of finely tuned decisions that judge chutkan will have to make about which charges can go forward and what evidence the special counsel is entitled to use to prove them. that's the process that we'll see under way here. and i would hazard a guess that

judge chutkan will not believe that it will need the attenuated time scheduling that donald trump's lawyers have proposed. >> now, joyce, we can anticipate a significant amount of back and forth between donald trump's attorneys arguing for a very, very broad application of the supreme court's ruling and then obviously jack smith looking to be narrow as possible in how that is done. if you're in the driver's seat and you're looking at this objectively, how good do you feel about what could remain of all of these indictments if the supreme court decision is broadly applied the way that trump's lawyers are going to seek to have it done? >> well, look, trump's lawyers want the entire indictment to be thrown out. it's unlikely that that will be the case. and even the supreme court did not go that far when they wrote this opinion. because there's a lot of conduct involved in this indictment that is personal conduct, that's the conduct of candidate trump, not

president trump. where the lines will have to be drawn, though, and the supreme court as you know, we've discussed this before, they didn't really establish a test for judge chutkan to use in deciding where that dividing line between official and unofficial conduct is and perhaps more importantly when the presumption against indicting or charging official conduct, when that presumption can be overcome. she'll take the first cut at that, but it's very clear that there will be another round of appeals to engage in oversight over the decision she makes. >> i'm so glad you brought that up because part of the thing that most people have been concerned about watching this unfold, and you and i have been following this from the very beginning of all of the indictments. has the supreme court given donald trump's attorneys another path of delay? you just talked about the fact that these decisions are likely going to be subject to another round of appeals. so in respect to the classified

documents case as well as election interference, has the fact that the supreme court did not create a hard and fast test ultimately given donald trump's team another avenue to push things further and further by challenging whatever the decisions are provided that they are not outright dismissals? >> so it's very likely that there would have been a second round of appeals following judge chutkan's decisions even if the supreme court had set out a clear test. and that's the case because the supreme court says trump shouldn't have to go to trial over conduct that he is entitled to presidential immunity for. that means in essence that the appellate courts will take a second cut at it after the courts originally found that judge chutkan got it wrong the first time. it's a complicated process. and the court makes it much more difficult for judge chutkan to get it right by failing to set forward a streamlined test. that's one of the many flaws in the court's decision in the immunity case.

>> joyce, i have about one more minute, and i have to ask you what is the likelihood at all that this case, the election interference case, sees the light of day before november? >> it won't. there won't be a trial in this case before the election. but what there may well be is judge chutkan is deciding the immunity issues. the government may well have the opportunity to lay out some of its evidence involving the former president. that's what his lawyers are so desperate to avoid. that's why they've asked for a timeline that really doesn't kick in until after the election is over. >> joyce vance getting you to spend time with me on a saturday when you could be somewhere yelling "roll tide" is a big deal. so thank you for hanging out with me on "the saturday show" and breaking all of this down. up next, rethinking how we talk about voting rights and those who've served sentences for felonies. we'll explain more after the break. you're watching "the saturday show." u're watching "the saturd show." in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting...

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are. the names. i'm not at liberty to do that at this moment. it's time for this war to end. we should end this war. i think we're on the verge of having an agreement. it's just time to end it. >> we'll have more as the story develops. there's a new voter suppression effort in the state of nebraska, and soon nebraska's supreme court is going to weigh in on republicans' latest attempt to restrict ballot access in that very state. now, earlier this year nebraskan lawmakers made headlines for passing a bill to restore the voting rights of those who completed their sentences following felony convictions. but nebraska's secretary of state and several other top officials were against it, even go as far to direct county officials to stop registering people convicted of felonies to vote if they hadn't been pardoned. now, it's crucial to remember that americans who have completed their sentencing have

paid off their debts and are expected to integrate themselves back into society. but then taking away something so crucial like the power to vote can isolate thousands of americans who want to make a difference in their country. this is a problem that disproportionately impacts communities of color and specifically black men. join meg now to discuss is darryl atkinson, co-director and co-founder of forward justice. darryl, thank you for being here. what are your thoughts on the latest news coming out of nebraska? if their supreme court is able to uphold the decision by nebraska's secretary of state, they're going to be at least 7,000 residents who will be disenfranchised come november. >> yeah, thank you for having me, charles. our country is always stronger when we enlarge the we in we the people. we do that by giving folks a civic voice. the state legislature of nebraska did that by people --

by passing a law for people with felony convictions after they've completed their sentence to be able to get their voting rights back. but charles, we know whenever we have progress in this country there's always going to be backlash, and there -- here comes the backlash, with the opinion from the attorney general, which prompted the secretary of state to make this move. legally, though, i think there may be some remedies in play for the nebraska supreme court to maintain the status quo because of the voting rights electoral doctrine called the purcell doctrine. courts are leery to upend voting rights rules shortly before an election. they want to meant what's called the status quo. the status quo should be in this case because the nebraska legislature duly passed a law through normal processes and the

attorney general had an opportunity at that moment to bring up any issues which would have implicated the constitutionality of the law and that didn't happen. i would hope that the nebraska supreme court would kind of maintain and rule in favor of traditional voting rights doctrine and maintain the status quo, which should be that the law -- the state legislative law that was passed by the nebraska legislature should stay in place irrespective of this opinion from the attorney general and the move from the secretary of state. that's what i would hope. >> now, daryl, i want to sort of broaden this conversation, not just to include voting rights but looking at the impact that the stigma of being a convicted felon can have on someone's status in life, employment opportunities, trying to seek higher education or post-graduate education, other things of that nature, can you sort of talk about how unfair of an expectation it is that people

who are returning citizens who are just as impacted are supposed to be fully functioning members of society but the stigma of being a convicted felon prevents them from participating equally in these processes like voting, like getting employment and banning the box and how those movements exist and how we reconcile that. >> thank you for bringing that up. it isn't only the stigma. it is the legal civil laws that are implicated once you are convicted in the criminal justice system. there are over tens of thousands of laws all across the country that apply to people once they are convicted of a felony or misdemeanor. they can include not being able to volunteer in your kids' school, not being able to get a cosmetology license. in the state of north carolina 1 in 3 jobs requires some kind of permit, license or

certification. and criminal record history often bars people from being able to pursue those opportunities. then couple that with difficulty getting housing, not being able to be civically engaged, you have all of these things hitting you at once. right? the cumulative factor of all of these -- what the criminologists call collateral consequences hitting you at one time is ant thetical to what we want people to do once they get out, which is to be fully functioning members of society and fully participating, right? we are almost setting people up to fail. >> that was forward justice's daryl atkinson. so much more we could talk about on this conversation, but appreciate you joining us for "the saturday show." don't go anywhere. there's more after a quick break. we'll be right back.

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